That requires proof of
a) Correlation and
b) Causation

The fact that there is a correlation proves nothing, unless you have causation. It’s like saying people in lower income brackets are more likely to have heart disease. That doesn’t prove that the being poor directly causes the heart disease. It’s a correlation. But there could be a host of other factors causing it. Scientific proof needs to be a lot more rigorous than we can observe two things happening together sometimes.

My apologies Polly, and if you could give me a URL, I’ll add it to my TTD list.

I’m used to blunt dismissal of my views by men. So yours comes as no surprise. It would be nice though for you to give arguments, medical papers, you know, actual evidence showing exactly where I’m wrong.

You’re one of the more intelligent, well-read and rational people amongst the punditocracy. I’ve found many of your posts, especially ones expressing contrary views to my own, very thought-provoking. It’s because you’re worth listening to that I ask those questions. Of course, I have no right to demand that you answer them, there’s been too much demanding and arrogance, too much denial of narratives shown on both sides. So please could you help, and give me your views on the definitions of male and female?

Sarah: to raise this point. I was bought up by a 60/70s vocal Feminist mother, and whilst I may have been bought up reasonably gender neutral, the fact is, is that I was still raised male – because that’s what sex I was – and thus, my experiences and upbringing, regardless of gender roles/stereotypes/conformities, are still shaped, unavoidably by whether you are FAB or MAB.. You don’t get an opt-out in most cases!

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say re. sharing in household duties – are you saying that because you see this as a ‘feminine role’? Or that because you shared in them, that gives you some claim/experiences of womanhood?
*confused*

I also don’t think you understand how male privilege works? I’m sorry, but transmen do not start at the same low levels as transwomen. Not all transwomen start from the same low levels either. But, don’t get me into a good old Leftist class warfare rant

Elitism? Elitism? WTF???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If you call the way women are TREATED elite Sarah, you’re seriously unsane.

And you’re mistaking me for someone who cares whether you think I’m bitter or not.

Many of us from ‘old school’ feminism have not forgotten about the fundamentals. Something I find annoying with the 3rd wave who seem to stand on the sexual empowerfulness platform (isn’t gunna work btw, fucking your way to respect, master’s house/tools etc). Transactivists also ignore the fundamentals, big time. The transactivist brand of feminism seems to be all about trans, fuck all to do with FABs and the core issues. And a lot of usage of the word ‘transphobia’ when we do not comply with transactivist wishes.

Yes thebewilderness, it is about our liberation. And our autonomy. Autonomy does not include being told what it means to be a FAB by non-FABs.

I thought it was about equal chance, you make it to elitism.”

You know Sarah, a lot of men like to think that feminism is about being equal.
It’s not.
It’s about getting the patriarchy’s boot off our neck.
I’ve been kicking this bloody can down the road for over forty years.
Thousands of women before me have been kicking it for hundreds of years.
No one has a clue what we could do or be if the stinking boot came off our neck.
Right now, in the US, women earn 70% of the dollar that men earn. We haven’t even come close to bloody equal. So don’t even give me any shit about elitism.

Content-wise, they were all over the place.

A complete diffenrent view; I was raised in a very feminist household, so I never had an advantage of beeing raised male. I was always told I would have to to do my share of household in a (potentially) upcumming upbringing family That gave my femin side some extra bit to chew. How can I wish to be a female when there is no difference between the genders. Well I learnded to swallow that bit. But you won’t even have to take a bite.

Its a bit of the bitterness about radical feminism, I’m about

I thought it was about equal chance, you make it to elitism. No one here questioned, why are the female delevelopers better paid? And I don’t know if you aware of, that when in northern Europe there was esanblished a womens quote in CEO Positions the values of the compaies raised, which had female leaders.

But you cant sum that up to success, wont you? Men and women are equal. there can’t be an advantage of the female kind, too?

I know, that a woman can get every bit of success if there is no hinderness of male privilege. Lot of M2F prooved that. But you only insist theres ever no difference and therefore no such thing as a birth conditioned Gender Identity.

How much du I have to pay you? I provied all the way to manhood for you, and even pay for a good plasty. You will gain all the male priviledge you all like for for yourself
One Exception. If you stop the Hormons, there willbe no money at all
One final Exlusivement- your over 18 and your not TS. And by the way, the hormones have to be importet from Mexico or if youre in Europe from Spain, cause no normal doctor would lead you to hormonal replacement therapie. this isn’t taken light at heart by the medical community.

Oh well. and please nlog about any welcome or unwelcome result.
I think I cant loose my money, if not a F2M tricks me.

And why I am shure of that? You know your gender not whats between your hips, but between your ears.

Don’t ever tell me that theres a glass ceyling, too. Not because there isn’t, I know that one. I know a few things more that might interest you i’ve you?d have an open ear, but that would favor one gender and so you don’t want to here that, the same way no one wondered why female developers are better paid. But both would mean there are differences in the sexes that cannot be ignored.

Which is a further point in distroying a world view, based on so much good intensions and as a may say have brought the western world a good stept further. Especially in the not so sexuall opressed Europe, as I see.

It could also be that TWs are unprepared for such treatment, as the FABs have been getting an unhealthy dose of it since the time we were wrapped in pink blankets (hey, you’ve gotta get that sexism in early, girl babies are too stoopid to realise they are inferior and ‘other’).

Very true stormy. I have met a large number of M2F transitioners, whom seem to have done so more because of their ‘rose-tinted’ view of what being a woman was about? In some cases, about being ‘treated as a lady and dressing glam’. In many cases, they were simply unprepared for dealing with how society treats them as both women, and as transwomen.

I’ve also met some transpeople that have been rather resentful that another has been victim to violence, discrimination, etc. on the grounds as being perceived as a woman solely, and not as a transwoman – it that makes sense? (I’ve tried to re-word that a few times).. what I mean is, they are deeply sorry to hear that another transwoman has suffered, but sometimes also have an element of refusal to accept, that it could be because of that person being a woman, rather than as trans? Transactivists always regard an incident as automatically being ‘transphobic’, but certainly in some cases (if that person has passing privilege), then it actually comes down to mysogyny/woman-hating?